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Episode 32: Trade

In this episode, Adam and Jake discuss Trade from Adventures.

Kingdom at the end: Native Village, Catapult, Guide, Trade Route, Silk Road, Capital, Cobbler, Haunted Woods, Ill-Gotten Gains, Laboratory, Trade

I'm pretty sure I want IGG here - but probably just one.

 

The thing about the money-based deck here is that it is painfully bad against discard attacks, so if you can arrange a deck that catapults a treasure every turn, it's going to be hard for the opponent to make progress. Of course, there's not much in terms of +buy here, and so we come to the easiest way of getting that treasure every turn: IGG. The concept is to have a catapult, a bunch of Labs, an IGG, and just enough money to Province. Assuming opponent is getting Haunted Woods, you probably want a couple Guides as well?I suppose that it's possible that the Haunted Woods give enough draw to be able to overcome the discard limitations, but I'm inclined against it. I guess the other thing is that you kind of need a bunch of labs to make this work, at least for very long, so maybe a money opponent who just gets a lot of those will do ok against you. And maybe it's worth picking up a NV (as Necropolis basically) and a couple Haunted Woods to supplement the deck I suggest.

But my gut is no HW, no NV, end up with 1 Catapult, 1 IGG, enough other money to Province, and as many labs as possible, adding 2 Guide against a HW opponent.

 

In any case, I don't think Trade is going to see much play here, because the other 5s are so fantastic, and you can prefer thinning with Catapult. I lean toward opening Catapult/Catapult into 2 silvers, strictly preferring Labs for a long time, getting Guides whenever you hit 3-4 after maybe your 3rd silver, get an IGG probably only after the Labs are gone (maybe once you have like 7 Labs if your opponent isn't mirroring at all, you need to pivot - exact number less important than game state).

 

 

I find it pretty hard to believe something going for multi province turns can be successful here, because it's hard to get the payload for that, and the amount of cards it requires mean it's hard to get the draw, which means that it's got to take way too long to set all of that up. But I prefer Province-and-attack payload to just province. I suppose there are some situations in which you can spam getting some IGGs, most probably if your opponent is not getting any deck control, but instead relying on only Trade? I think by then you're pretty likely to be able to province... but maybe you can pick up a couple of those things.

I also find slogs pretty unlikely to work - even without Haunted Woods, the best way to get money for the long haul needs you to trash stuff (Trade) that SR doesn't want you to, and otherwise there's basically no support at all - you're just buying basic cards (and I guess maybe Trade Route??). I suppose Cobbler helps, but it's it's the saddst workshop ever for that strategy, and it's not like Workshop was a worldbeater. Sure, you can gain silver to hand to buy some stuff like duchy early, but.... bleh.

 

IGG Rush doesn't seem insane to me, but I think the Catapults should probably keep it under control enough to not be worth it, especially if backed up by Lab.

 

 

 

It's possible that one catapult is sufficient, but I would definitely be inclined to start trying 2. If it's determined that Haunted Woods is good, maaaybe you can look at Catapult/Guide, but I'm skeptical.

On mobile so I'll be terse.

Capital gives +buy so maybe that means you'd rather have that than igg? Also I think the main disagreement is on the strength of guide. Maybe I have it wrong but I think that's what it really boils down to.

Quote from Adam Horton on July 7, 2018, 3:20 PM

On mobile so I'll be terse.

Capital gives +buy so maybe that means you'd rather have that than igg? Also I think the main disagreement is on the strength of guide. Maybe I have it wrong but I think that's what it really boils down to.

Hmm. Capital gives buy, but the one curse isn't nothing, and IGG is also cheaper. I'm not sure it matters the hugest amount, but I don't see much reason to prefer Capital, especially if all you're getting is a copper and immediately paying off the debt anyway.... Maybe you can get a double province at the end, or a double lab to close out that pile, and if so, then that's great? I'm not thinking that's likely, though (specially because I think you lab before getting the treasure probably). In any case, I think it's probably usually not making a big difference....

 

I'm not really understanding how the difference is Guide. It doesn't seem that way to me - I don't think it's that important (maybe I'm overselling it in my comments??). It seems to me like the difference is that I think the Catapult attack is really key, which you don't make a big deal of. And maybe you think Haunted Woods is important, whereas I think it, for the most part, is... fine, but not worth the action. Which leads me to the conclusion that Trade is a lot worse here (well, less important to the point you don't get it, mostly worse in comparison to Lab and the other trashing) than you made it out to be. But maybe I'm missing something.

Well I'm counting on guide to defend me against discard attacks and haunted woods, I got the impression that you didn't feel this defense would be very good

Quote from Adam Horton on July 7, 2018, 4:39 PM

Well I'm counting on guide to defend me against discard attacks and haunted woods, I got the impression that you didn't feel this defense would be very good

Ah! Somehow it completely slipped my mind that you would use Guide against the discard attack like this, despite very clearly catching it as your preferred defense against Haunted Woods. With this in mind, I think I come around to be pretty close to you, though on the balance I think I prefer Lab over HW still, and Catapult as a trasher, though all of those things are close. Not sure when you are getting those guides exactly, but you should do at some point.

The distinction between thinning and deck improvement can also be applied to junkers.  A card like Witch "thins" relative to your opponent, because they get more stop cards than you.  On the other hand, Soothsayer, IGG, and Followers, do not "thin" relative to your opponent, since they add as many stop cards to your own deck as they give to your opponent.

I could see IGG being bought here, mainly as a Catapult target.  2 Curses and a Militia attack for your opponent, not bad.  Of course, those 2 curses might become 2 silvers, for about the same price that you paid for the IGG.  So... this isn't sounding that great.

What I see in this set is a lot of $5s that you want, and Catapult to prevent you from getting there.  Do you go for Catapult because it prevents your opponent from hitting $5, or do you avoid Catapult because it also prevents you from hitting $5 (compared to silver or Guide)?  I'm not sure, but I like Catapult/Silver, preferring to trash copper over estate, since estates can be a Trade target.  Haunted Woods seems like the best Trade-enabler, but there could be an argument for Lab or even Capital.  What do you think of Capital as a Trade-enabler?

"What do you think of Capital as a Trade-enabler?"

Hmm, initially, I like it about as much as I like Capital as a Mint enabler. It certainly gets the job done, but you'd prefer to enable it with increased hand size to maximize your chances of making the Mint/Trade do the best trashing it can. It's not to be discounted by any means, but it doesn't do much to line itself up with the cards you want to trash with Trade.

Quote from trivialknot on July 8, 2018, 8:11 PM

I could see IGG being bought here, mainly as a Catapult target.  2 Curses and a Militia attack for your opponent, not bad.  Of course, those 2 curses might become 2 silvers, for about the same price that you paid for the IGG.  So... this isn't sounding that great.

I actually think this kind of thing is better than just buying one IGG, gaining Coppers, and Catapulting those Coppers.

What do you think of Capital as a Trade-enabler?

So I'm not exactly going to buy Capital with the intent of enabling Trade with it. Drawing cards is a lot more effective and you can do that here at the same price point. However, if I'm playing a money deck, Capital is a great card for it, and I also want to Trade in that deck. It's very possible that Capital will enable some Kevins that I couldn't otherwise have, but that's something I'll more than likely be pleasantly surprised with when it happens, rather than something that I build towards.